Challenge Response: Which is More Likely?

Posted: August 3, 2012 by Brett Kunkle in God is Real, Weekly Challenge

Here’s my response to this week’s challenge:

Comments
  1. ..Addressed to Brett Kunkl (you knew it was coming :-) and to the awesome forum master/goddess Amy Hall:

    The NT Jesus miracle claims vs. Hiroshima…Hmmmm

    Hiroshima:
    …we have ORIGINAL raw video/audio of the nuclear bomb attack [8:15 A.M. on August 6, 1945] (just YouTube it! Or Google it!)

    …we have tens of thousands of ORIGINAL newspaper writings (in countless languages) about it from around the world (from that same day [8:15 A.M. on August 6, 1945] to weeks later)

    …we have tens of thousands of ORIGINAL photos (from that same day [8:15 A.M. on August 6, 1945] to weeks later) of the horrific damage done to the city, to the people and to animals by the nuclear bomb

    …we have LIVING EYEWITNESSES of the event (many with scares from the blast)

    … & moreover WE CAN SEE even bigger and better nuclear bombs right now as we speak (in fact we have so many nuclear bombs that we can blow-up the entire planet 37 times over)!

    Now compared to what we empirically have above for Hiroshima—THE SUPERHERO NT JESUS WE HAVE NOTHING! A BIG FAT 0!

    …and that makes perfect sense when you realize THE NT JESUS IS A FICTIONAL CHARACTER!!!!!!!!

    Brett Strong…note: I repeatedly pointed this out in multiple ways to J Warner (that the NT Jesus was a fictional character) when I was a special hour long guest on Greg Koukl’s Stand to Reason show on November 20, 2011

    …remember folks; 3 BCE to 30 AD knows nothing of the NT Jesus (he doesn’t exist in that time period/as if he’s a fictional character thought of years later!)

    …the Dead Sea Scrolls (written by Jews for Jews 150 BCE to 70 AD) knows nothing of the NT Jesus (as if he’s a fictional character not worth mentioning)!

    …the apostle Paul admits in 1 Corinthians 15:3 that he was just passing on what was told to him (through oral [zero evidence] transmission/the great myth making machine)!

    …the gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Acts) (were we get virtually all of our NT Jesus info from) are all scandalously anonymous, undated, origin unknown & written in the 3rd person (note: all that is picture perfect for fictional character writing [like the cosmic superhero NT Jesus]/using the very real ancient Middle East as its backdrop)!

    Alas Brett Kunkle and the great Amy Hall: keep up the good work as you live boldly & joyfully for Jesus (minus all divisive dogma, i.e.)–and may he bless you greatly in all your comings and goings; actually I wish that to all Christians around the world (minus all Christian divisive dogma) …Have a great smiling day everyone!!!

    Now everyone sing along with me with one of my all-time super-favorite songs

    “How Great Is Our God”
    The splendor of a King, clothed in majesty
    Let all the earth rejoice
    All the earth rejoice
    He wraps himself in Light, and darkness tries to hide
    And trembles at His voice
    Trembles at His voice
    How great is our God, sing with me
    How great is our God, and all will see
    How great, how great is our God
    Age to age He stands
    And time is in His hands
    Beginning and the end
    Beginning and the end
    The Godhead Three in One
    Father Spirit Son
    The Lion and the Lamb
    The Lion and the Lamb
    Name above all names
    Worthy of our praise
    My heart will sing
    How great is our God
    How great is our God, sing with me
    How great is our God, and all will see
    How great, how great is our God

    Whew! ….Have a great day everyone and may your god find favor upon you; and remember to spread love not division!!!!

    Hey Brett Kunkl, thanks for including me in your shout out at the end of the video…totally unexpected…made me laugh in a wonderful way (LOL!!!)…that’ why you and the awesome Amy Hall are my favorite Christians (followed closely by Sean McDowell, my e-mail buddy)!!!!!!! Later guys

    • One last thing Brett Kunkl; I left this message to Erik (on another STR reply post) but I thought it would fit perfectly to my above response …people often ask me why I emphatically state the NT Jesus is a fictional character… here’s a nutshell reason why Kunkl (and believe me I could pile on the reasons why the NT Jesus is fiction, but for now here’s a FUN nutshell reason why)

      “the NT Jesus is written identical to a Marvel Comic Book character; for the NT Jesus character ‘FLY’S’ in the air and DISAPPEARS into a raincloud, DISAPPEARS through walls, DISAPPEARS before people’s eyes (puff, gone!), APPEARS OUT OF THIN AIR (‘boo!’ scaring the heck out of people), CONTROLS THE WEATHER [tells it to shut up and it does], WALKS ON WATER [and invites his student too do the same], raises a ZOMBIE from the grave, gave his students the power to raise ZOMBIES from the grave, became a ZOMBIE himself and then raised himself from the grave (and during that time a horde of ZOMBIES raided Jerusalem; whoa!), and this superhero NT Jesus is supposed to come back (with a tattoo on his leg) on A FLYING WHITE ‘POLICE’ HORSE (backed by an entire army flying on white ‘police’ horses too) to gather BILLIONS of ZOMBIES in the sky (along with the living)—whisking them off to the cosmos …hmmm…sounds like fairytales to me…”

      Brett Strong

      Kunkl, check out what Matt Chandler had to say about his Christian beliefs (Matt Chandler is the lead pastor of the mega church called The Village Church, in Dallas Texas; and he was laughing with his 5,000 plus congregation about the utter zaniness of the Jesus story)

      “There’s a foolishness to what we believe!” “its crazy!” “a virgin gave birth to a guy who was god but only part of god but still completely god and man also, lived perfectly so they killed him, they buried him and he came back to life and then he floated back into heaven and one day he coming back on a white horse, to get us” “It’s crazy!”

      Kunkl, check out what Christian super-elite Peter Kreeft (a major PhD Christian apologetics guy with over 60 books written) stated

      “the incarnation is 99.99999999 percent unbelievable!” “How could we ever believe such a thing all by ourselves unless we were mentally deranged!”

      Hmmm Kunkl, their words not mine…:-)

      Have a great day Kunkl :-)…but I must add again Kunkl: who cares that the NT Jesus is a fictional character, what matters is do you benefit from such a belief in him? Yes!!!!! Then that’s good enough reason to keep believing (as long as you’re not being divisive)! No need to go any further! It is finished! :-)

    • Sam Harper says:

      Brett Strong, I wonder if you missed the point of the comparison Brett Kunkle was making between Hiroshima and the NT miracle claims. Remember that this was a response to the question, “Which is more likely–that the laws of nature have been broken, or that somebody has lied?” This question comes from David Hume’s famous argument against rational belief in miracles. Hume defined a miracle as a deviation of nature’s usual course. He argued that since the laws of nature are arrived at by uniform past experience, than any deviation from them is unlikely as it’s possible to be.

      But if you take Hume’s argument to its logical conclusion, it would follow that any unique event is as unlikely as it’s possible to be since there is a uniform past experience against it. Since the bombing of Hiroshima happened only once, then by Hume’s reasoning it’s as unlikely as it’s possible for any event to be.

      But, of course, as you have pointed out, there is good evidence that Hiroshima actually happened. You have inadvertently made Brett Kunkle’s point–that statistical probability alone is not enough to say that an event probably didn’t happen. This is the argument in a syllogism:

      1. If statistical improbability alone makes it unlikely that a unique event would happen, then it is unlikely that the bombing of Hiroshima happened.
      2. The evidence shows that the bombing of Hiroshima is likely to have happened.
      3. Therefore, statistical improbability alone does not make it unlikely that a unique event happened.

      By supplying the second premise, you have made Brett’s point.

      So the supposition that if a miracle happened, it would be a deviation from nature’s usual course, is not, by itself, enough to dismiss miraculous claims. Just as with Hiroshima, you have to look at the specific evidence for the event.

      Now, you may want to argue that unlike Hiroshima the evidence for the resurrection is not strong enough to overcome the statistical improbability of resurrections in general, but if so, then that’s a different argument. But your comments about the strength of the evidence for Hiroshima doesn’t in any way undermine Brett Kunkle’s point; rather, it establishes it.

      Your argument against the existence of Jesus is relevant to the question of whether any of Jesus’ miracles actually happened, but they are not relevant to the question of whether a miraculous claim can be dismissed merely on the basis that involves a violation of the laws of nature. So that is somewhat of a red herring.

      And, as a side note, I don’t agree with Hume’s understanding of what a miracle is, but going into that would also be off-topic.

      • Hi Sam Harper… thanks for pointing that out, if I indeed did get Kunkl’s point wrong? No problem, because the bottom line is this: THE NT JESUS IS A FICTIONAL CHARACTER…forget Hiroshima and focus your brains on this Sam Harper: THE NT JESUS IS A FICTIONAL CHARACTER

        So to get back on point: “Which is more likely–miracles or lying?” …i.e.: is the NT Jesus real or did someone flat out lie about such a being ever existing in reality…and the commonsense/logical answer is obviously this: the NT Jesus is pure fiction, a lie from ancient times by a person or a group of people…and all you have to do is read the bible to see this fact a mile away
        Look Sam Harper (as I stated earlier): “the NT Jesus (according to the anonymous gospels: a man with superhero powers) is written identical to Marvel Comic Book characters (like Superman or the Invisible Man); for the NT Jesus character ‘FLY’S’ in the air and DISAPPEARS into a raincloud, DISAPPEARS through walls, DISAPPEARS before people’s eyes (puff, gone!), APPEARS OUT OF THIN AIR (‘boo!’ scaring the heck out of people), CONTROLS THE WEATHER (tells it to shut up and it does; cool), WALKS ON WATER (and invites his student too do the same), raises a ZOMBIE from the grave, gave his students the power to raise ZOMBIES from the grave, became a ZOMBIE himself and then raised himself from the grave (and during that time a horde of ZOMBIES raided Jerusalem; hmmm!), and this alleged 2,000 YEAR OLD ANCIENT MAN WITH STAB WOUNDS IN HIS HANDS AND FEET AND SIDE (i.e. superhero NT Jesus) is supposed to come back (with a tattoo on his leg) on A FLYING WHITE ‘POLICE’ HORSE (that’s right a flying horse! Hmmm, very interesting) backed by an entire army flying on white ‘police’ horses too (hmmm) to gather BILLIONS of ZOMBIES in the sky (along with the living)—whisking them off to the cosmos …hmmm…sounds like fairytales to me…”

        Brett Strong strikes again (I’m just pointing out your own bible to you Sammy)!!!!!!

        …as I said to Kunkl I say top you: who cares that the NT Jesus is a fictional character, what matters is do you benefit from such a belief in him? Yes!!!!! Then that’s good enough reason to keep believing (as long as you’re not being divisive)! No need to go any further! It is finished! Later dude!

      • Sam Harper says:

        Brett, it’s hard to tell from your reply whether you understood what I was saying to you or whether you agreed with it or not because instead of talking about the topic of Brett’s video or my explanation of his argument, you’ve decided to talk about the existence of Jesus. Sorry, I don’t chase rabbit trails so readily.

  2. Erkki S. says:

    This totally misses the entire point of the argument in that no one has ever claimed that there were supernatural forces involved in the making and dropping of the bombs in Hiroshima. Proving supernatural requires that you must first exhaust all natural explanations for an event.

    • .Hi ErKKi S, my above reply to Sammy was kindly meant for you too, my friend…so read and reread again… and this I lovingly say to you too: who cares that the NT Jesus is a fictional character, what matters is do you benefit from such a belief in him? Yes!!!!! Then that’s good enough reason to keep believing (as long as you’re not being divisive)! No need to go any further! Have a great Sunday my friend, you and Sammy…

      Now (you and Sammy) help me sing another all-time favorite song, by Mercy Me–and Amy Hall and Brett Kunkle you guys can join in :-)

      “Bring The Rain”

      I can count a million times
      People asking me how I
      Can praise You with all that I’ve gone through
      The question just amazes me
      Can circumstances possibly
      Change who I forever am in You
      Maybe since my life was changed
      Long before these rainy days
      It’s never really ever crossed my mind
      To turn my back on you, oh Lord
      My only shelter from the storm
      But instead I draw closer through these times
      So I pray

      Bring me joy, bring me peace
      Bring the chance to be free
      Bring me anything that brings You glory
      And I know there’ll be days
      When this life brings me pain
      But if that’s what it takes to praise You
      Jesus, bring the rain

      I am Yours regardless of
      The dark clouds that may loom above
      Because You are much greater than my pain
      You who made a way for me
      By suffering Your destiny
      So tell me what’s a little rain
      So I pray

      Holy, holy, holy
      Is the Lord God Almighty

      (Wow my friends, what an awessome song!!!!!!!!!!)

  3. Erik says:

    Brett (Strong),

    Thank you for replying to my request for some specifics. The information you provided will be helpful in my further study. I’m certainly not as well equipped as the folks at STR to respond to you (and from the sound of things, you’ve exchanged interactions in the past), and this probably isn’t the best forum to try and do so (I find written exchanges to be missing some important components of conversation and has a tendency at times to leave opportunities for misunderstandings).

    That said, I’m planning to take some time to research the claims you’ve made in your posts. But I’d like to address one in particular. Regarding your quotes from Peter Kreeft, I’ve been unable to locate the source of these quotes. Assuming these are truly ‘quotes’, I would expect they should be relativley easy to locate. Doing an internet search, they only appeared in one place – on a blog that seeks to refute Christianity. In doing some research on Peter Kreefts’ own website, he has articles that firmly defend Chrisitanity, including the resurrection. In his article “Evidence of the Resurrection of Christ”, he takes a close look at many of the theories that seek to refute the resurrection. In this article he cites evidence for the resurrection but for the existence of Jesus himself. What you state just doesn’t seem to fit with Peter Kreeft’s own works. If you would, could you please cite the source of these quotes? I’d like to review the context in which they were made.

    Allow me to close by quoting Peter Kreeft from the article above: “The historical evidence is massive enough to convince the open-minded inquirer. By analogy with any other historical event, the resurrection has eminently credible evidence behind it. To disbelieve it, you must deliberately make an exception to the rules you use everywhere else in history.” Peter Kreeft, Evidence of the Resurrection of Jesus

    Again, thank you for providing some points for your argument. I’m looking forward to doing further research.

  4. .Erik asks: Regarding your quotes from Peter Kreeft, I’ve been unable to locate the source of these quotes

    Brett Strong replies: go to peterkreeft.com and click on audio (to the immediate left of screen); once on audio page scroll down to Lord, liar or lunatic and this shocking-shocking Peter Kreeft quote should be there in his hour plus lecture

    “the incarnation is 99.99999999 percent unbelievable!” “How could we ever believe such a thing all by ourselves unless we were mentally deranged!”

    Brett Strong

    Note Erik: when I listened to this lecture 2 years ago it was free but now it costs 2 bucks; hmmm, Jesus like Santa Clause is big money business..oh well…it is what it is…anyways (since its Sunday) lets sing another all-time favorite song of mine…and the wondrous Amy Hall and the studly Kunkl please join in…OK, here we go

    “Over My Head”

    I tried to figure it out
    Time and time again and time again
    I guess there’s just some things I’ll never understand
    ‘Cause Your ways aren’t our ways
    But deep down in my soul, down in my soul
    There is one thing I know that I know

    I’m in over my head
    Right where I wanna be
    I’m so lost within Your love
    The love that always covers me
    So high, so deep, so wide
    A strong and cleansing tide
    My soul has found a place to rest
    I’m in over my head

    I’ve been holding on
    Now I’m letting go, just letting go
    Gonna let Your love carry me away
    I don’t know where I’m going
    But I’m surrounded by the truth
    And I can feel the current pulling me
    Deeper into You

    I’m in over my head
    Right where I wanna be
    I’m so lost within Your love
    The love that always covers me
    So high, so deep, so wide
    A strong and cleansing tide
    My soul has found a place to rest
    I’m in over my head

    You see me for who I am
    You did reach out Your hand
    You made me understand
    That Your love has always covered me

    (WoW…who cares if the NT Jesus is a fictional character, we all benefit so lets all enjoy such heartfelt music with our hands raised in the air with tears trickling down our faces…wow!)

    • Erik says:

      Brett,

      I downloaded the ‘Lord, Liar or Lunatic’ audio you referrenced. After listening to the whole piece of audio, I never came across either of the two quotes you referrenced. Rather, what I found was a rather well put argument for not only the existence of Jesus, but a clear argument for him being not another teacher among teachers, but rather the Creator, the Truth, the Only Way. Peter Kreeft gives no information in this presentation that would lead me to believe he is anything but fully convinced of the reliability and truth of Christianity.

      Perhaps the quotes are from another source of his? I’m still interested in hearing them in context to know why they were spoken. From what I’ve seen so far from Peter Kreeft, it seems out of sorts for someone who so strongly defends Christianity to make a statement that indicates he has no belief.

      I’m also curious as to the need to point out that there was a cost to listent to this audio. Is your position that anyone who creates materials regarding Christianity should do so at no cost? People have to make a living and I’m sure you know there are costs associated with creating those materials, marketing, printing, web hosting, etc. I don’t know that has added anything useful to this discussion. I noted that the blog where these quotes originated had a book for sale also (and yes, I know who’s blog that is). By your statement, should I also note that perhaps Atheism is also a big dollar business? Both sides have a reasonable right to charge for their services, otherwise, how do they expect to make a living and support their families?

      That said, I’m still happy to further study these quotes. If you have additional information on them to offer, please let me know. Now, I’ve probably taken up enough space on STR’s blog with this and I feel I’m getting off-topic of the original discussion. If you’d like to continue with me via email, perhaps there is a way we could share that information in a more private format than this one (I don’t put my email out on public sites), I’d be open to that opportunity.

      Thanks again for your time in responding to myself and others here. I do firmly believe we can be better prepared to respond to our critics when we get a chance to understand their objections.

      • Hi Erik…thanks for checking, simply listen to all of Peter’s Kreefts lectures on his site and you find the shocking quotes:

        “the incarnation is 99.99999999 percent unbelievable!” “How could we ever believe such a thing all by ourselves unless we were mentally deranged!”

        Like I said, it was over 2 year ago and I did listen to all of his lectures, so those above quotes are somewhere in there…afterall, I thought it was very interesting that he actually stated ten 9’s (99.99999999)…and he also went on to say that it was a “miracle” (his word not mine) to believe such a thing as the incarnation

        Brett Strong

        let me (and the entire STR community) know when you find those shocking quotes…it will shock you too, my friend…have an awesome Sunday, my friend…

      • .And about the money thing, Erik: can you show me where the NT Jesus character in the gospels ever says to sell his teachings for profit? Seriously, my friend….look:

        Matthew 10:9 the storybook Jesus specifically said to his disciples who he sent out to preach his message “Don’t take any money with you”

        In Matthew 19:21 your storybook Jesus emphatically said to the rich man “if you want to be perfect, go and sell all you have and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come follow me”

        In Luke 14:33 the storybook Jesus says “no one can become my disciple without giving up everything”

        …and how did Peter respond? He said (in Matthew 19:27) “We’ve given up everything to follow you. What will we get out of it?”

        The storybook Jesus stated in Luke 14:28 “count the cost”

        …so Erik, according to your storybook Jesus (to be his follower) you must become poverty stricken, a homeless person!

        Read Luke 9:58, your storybook Jesus states “I, the Son of Man, have no home of my own, not even a place to lay my head”

        You see Erik, selling Jesus stuff goes directly against Jesus’ own teachings!!!!!…but if you can show me a verse where JESUS states to make money off of his name or teachings, please point it out to me and I will rescind this entire post, my friend…no qualms about it

        Bret Strong….have a great day my friend and keep smiling…

      • One last thing Erik, you ask: how do they expect to make a living and support their families?

        What family? Didn’t Peter say (in Matthew 19:27) “We’ve given up everything to follow you”

        …again Erik, what family—didn’t the disciples immediately leave everything (their entire family) behind to follow Jesus?

        Read Luke 18:29, you storybook Jesus says “I assure you, everyone who has given up house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the Kingdom of God” …again Erik, what family?

        Brett Strong

        Remember Erik: if you want to be a follower of the storybook Jesus, then according to his own teachings, you must “count the cost” (give up everything for Jesus!!!! Remember Erik, the storybook Jesus was homeless on purpose, he set the tone for his followers, to do as I do so there is no hypocrasy)…do you have the guts Erik to give up everything for the storybook Jesus? Hmmm…let all of us know, my friend…have a great day

  5. Erik says:

    Okay, Brett. I can see you’ve got a string of prepared responses. I can see you’ve spent considerable time doing research in some of these areas. But I wonder if you’ve missed the point of my search for your quotes in the first place.

    You presented a list of arguments against the validity of the New Testament. I simply picked out one of those items, the 2 quotes by Peter Kreeft, and asked you to provide support for the quotes. You gave me a specific place to go to find them. When I did the research and didn’t find them there, your response was that I needed to “listen to all of Peter Kreeft’s lectures on his site and you find the shocking quotes”. While I’m willing to do some research, I don’t think it’s my responsibility to listen to every lecture on his site to find quotes that you have used to defend your position. I’m simply asking you to provide the source citations. You’re the one who made the claim, I’m simply asking you to back it up with more than assertive language. I think you would agree with me that’s a reasonable request considering how important these claims are.

    It was my mistake to address a second issue (the part about the money) rather than stay on task until we settled the first discussion point. As a result, it’s led to several more points being made by you that are not in response to the question at hand, specifically, the source of the quotes. My apologies for opening that up. I will say that no, I don’t believe that Jesus taught that we are all to sell our posessions, leave our families and become paupers for Christ or that someone cannot receive payment for their work when it relates to Christianity. As a matter of fact, the gospel is freely available to those who want to hear it in a wide variety of ways. This is a whole separate issue that would warrant a whole separate discussion regarding how those verses fit in the proper context of how they were used, as well as a discussion about what commands are made as a general command to all followers and what commands were made specifically to his disciples at that time. But again, that line of discussion is off task.

    I offer once more that if you’d like to continue this discussion via email, I’d be happy to do so. I’ve managed to take enough space on STR’s blog already to exchange information based on my own questions, and, since this is not my personal forum, I would like to leave this space for the specific challenge responses that it’s meant for. So, if you’d like to continue this offline, we can always share the results with the folks who follow this blog later without taking up all their space with our conversations. Let me know if you’d like to continue along that line. Have a great Sunday.

    • Hi Erik: PeterKreeft.com is the source of these shocking quotes…

      “the incarnation is 99.99999999 percent unbelievable!” “How could we ever believe such a thing all by ourselves unless we were mentally deranged!”

      …now note Erik: while preparing for debates 2 years ago I literally listened too 8 or 9 of Peter Kreeft lectures on peterkreeft.com …sooooo, do as I did and listen to most of them and shall find those tasty quotes; for as you storybook Jesus says “seek and ye shall find; knock and the door shall be open” 

      Brett Strong

      Have a super-great day Erik

      • Erik says: I don’t believe that Jesus taught that we are all to sell our possessions, leave our families and become paupers for Christ

        Hmmm????????

        Question Erik, are you a disciple of Jesus according to the gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John)?

        Ooooooor are you a disciple of Jesus according to some other standard?

        Because if you claim to be a disciple of Jesus according the gospels, then emphatically Jesus stated repeatedly that you, Erik, must voluntary leave your entire family (wife, kids, & parents) and sell all of your possessions and give it to the poor—then and only then can you, Erik, be a disciple of storybook Jesus…end of story

        Read again Erik: In Matthew 19:21 your storybook Jesus emphatically said to the rich man “go and sell all you have and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. THEN [and only then!] come follow me”

        In Luke 14:33 the storybook Jesus says “no one can become my disciple without giving up everything” hmmm Erik

        …and how did Peter respond? He said (in Matthew 19:27) “We’ve given up everything to follow you”

        That’s why the storybook Jesus warned in Luke 14:28 “count the cost” if you want to be my disciple…

        And the storybook Jesus was not a hypocrite and he emphatically meant what he said, for in Luke 9:58, your storybook Jesus states “I, the Son of Man, have no home of my own, not even a place to lay my head”

        …so Erik, according to your storybook Jesus (to be his disciple according to the gospels) you must become poverty stricken, a homeless person!

        Brett Strong

        I had to write this post because you said that you didn’t want to talk about this but yet you went on try to make several points that you said you wanted nothing to do with; hmmm, therefore I must hold your foot to the fire…I look forward to see if you are a disciple of Jesus according to the gospels or to some other standard…

        Have a great day my friend :-)

  6. Erik says:

    Brett,

    This will be my final response to you in this exchange. I’ve twice offered to take this offline and have a reasoned discussion of your points. Twice you’ve not answered that request. I will let my offer stand. If at some point you would be interested in an exchange regarding each of the points you noted in responses to me, I’d still be happy to do so. As I’ve already stated, I’ve taken up enough space going off-topic on a blog that’s not my own, and out of respect for this community, I make the offer to take this offline.

    If you change your mind in the future, we can try it in the way I’ve discussed.

    Thank you,

    Erik

    • .Erik, you have a true heart for the NT Jesus and that’s all that counts; and you don’t seem dogmatic with all kinds of weird hell talk and so forth…in fact you seem really cool, an awesome guy full of respect; heck we could even have a cold glass of beer and watch a college football game at a sports bar (remember: the storybook Jesus drank wine and hung out with awful sinners)…sooo I fully support your Christian version, whatever version it may be (whether you are Mormon or JW or Catholic or Amish or whatever Erik), as long as you are not being divisive (with you’re going to hell talk, you are a sinner talk, god is mad at you, etc, etc, etc) I wish not to debate you or convince you of anything…who cares if the NT Jesus is fiction? Do we benefit from the NT Jesus is some way shape or form? Yes, we do! And that’s all that matters!

      Brett Strong

      A note to all: I’m against dogmatism (you’re going to hell talk, you are a sinner talk, god is mad at you, poor people tithing, etc, etc, etc)…I am not against Christianity or the NT Jesus/god! For some of my best friends and co workers are Christians and some of the best emotional/heartfelt music in the world is pop Christian music! Mercy Me, Chris Tomlin, 3rd Day, Michael W Smith, Rebecca St James, Hill Song, etc, etc, etc… and Joel Olsteen type pump you up messages are great too….

      So I’ll say it once more, Erik: I wish not to debate you or convince you of anything…who cares if the NT Jesus is fiction? Do we benefit from the NT Jesus is some way shape or form? Yes, we do! And that’s all that matters!

      …I’m very busy so I have to keep my debate time limited to radio debates (like STR Radio, Cross Examine Radio, Redemption Radio, Backpack Radio, Unbelievable Radio show [all the shows that I have appeared on and/or been a featured guest on]) or live public debates …and once in a while I drop into this awesome forum to debate a video that catches my eye…I respond to no other forums on the web…I’m much too busy…so have a great day my friend and maybe one day we’ll have a beer together and have fun talking about this Jesus of yours!

      • Erik says:

        I think that would certainly be an interesting meeting, Brett. Perhaps someday we’ll get that chance. I’ll look forward to that opportunity some day.

        Erik